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Talk:Moons of Pluto

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Orbits and diameters of S/2005 P1 and P2

Orbital periods of 28.1 & 41.7 days calculated from orbital radii of 50 & 65 Mm, assumed to not vary significantly from the semimajor axes, and a Plutonian mass of 1.25 E22 kg. Radii are consistant with the Plutonian system diagram published by NASA (in fact I measured just those figures), but no other source was provided. kwami 01:47, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

According to http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/051031_pluto_moons.html the diameters of the two new moons are between 30 and 100 miles (45 and 160 kilometers). There orbits are 27,000 miles (44,000 km) from Pluto. Martinwilke1980 09:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that report didn't match the NASA diagrams. Anyway, now confirmed with IAU release ref'd on the orphaned duplicate article. kwami 10:07, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Imaged?

forgive my ignorance, but could the 'images' be uploaded to wikipedia if the moons have been 'imaged'? 'In The News' currently mentions them after all. Or are the images unsuitable? --81.154.236.221 19:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

They're on the individual moon articles. kwami 01:17, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Shairun

who says Charon should be pronounced "shair'-un"? For all I know, it should be pronounced [xa'ro:n], or [kha'ro:n], or, if you really cannot avoid giving it a Modern English tint, "kair'-un" would be acceptable (but should not be prescribed as superior to the former). 83.79.181.171 20:34, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, [xa'ro:n] does not fit English phonotactics, and this is an English encyclopedia. If you'd read the article, you would have found out that the discoverer pronounced it shair'-un in honor of his wife, and that this is the common English pronunciation of the astronomical community. The alternate pronunciation is the standard English literary pronunciation of the mythological character, kair'-un. If you wish to pretend that we're speaking Greek (I enjoy doing this myself), then the Greek is right there for you to use. Other readers have objected to including the Greek, and I defended it because I thought people like you and me would be interested in the Greek pronunciation. But the assimilated English pronunciations are there because they are what people actually use in conversation. kwami 00:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I realize that it doesn't fit English phonology. If it did, why would we give a pronunciation key at all? We can say "the discoverer pronounced it like Sharon", or "the common English pronunciation of the astronomical community is shairun", but not just "Charon ([ʃæ'rən])" as if that was somehow the 'correct' or 'prescribed' (by whom?) pronunciation. 81.63.50.227 11:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
The discoverer's preference is that it be pronounced like Sharon, and I haven't met an astronomical authority yet who has not done so. By some quirk of history, this is the accepted english pronounciation, so that's how we should report it. If some dispute appears, we of course are obliged to report on that but until then we should stick with reporting the facts as they currently stand.
Wellspring 16:12, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
But is it "Sharon", with the vowel of marry, or "shairun", with the vowel of Mary, to those of us for whom those aren't the same?--JHJ 21:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I've only heard that it's like Sharon, after Char/Charlene. To me those have very different vowels, but I don't make the Mary-mary distinction, and don't know if Christy did. I've tried writing to some of Christy's colleagues to ask about this, but have never got an answer. If anyone knows, I'd be obliged as well! kwami 21:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Googling for "Charon" and "pronounced" finds some suggestion that the intended pronunciation may really have had ar pronounced as in Charlene - shar-un in your system, I think - see [1] and [2]. It also seems that there are at least four different ways of pronouncing Charon suggested on different websites.--JHJ 17:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Without a pronunciation key, the first site doesn't tell us anything. They could just mean 'like "Sharon"'. But they second is pretty unambiguous. The only question is whether they're getting this from an ambiguous website like the first one you gave, or if they're going from how astronomers . But it does make sense with his wife's name being Char(lene). How about we change it, but keep in mind that this is tentative, and we really need to confirm with one of the Pluto teams? kwami 22:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Whilest the discoverer may have named it 'Sharon' in honour of his wife, that means nothing. The discoverers of a certain large object named it 'Xena', that does not mean that is the official name for it. The official name for the main moon of Pluto is Charon pronounced in the Greek style, because it is from greek mythology. It may refer to the name of someone's wife in an astronomer's joke/pun, but the actual name is official because it is the greek ferryman to the underworld, matching the whole Pluto thing. It should no more be pronounced as the discoverer's wife's name than a certain planet should be called George.

Sorry, no astronomical body has an official pronunciation, so your point is baseless. There isn't even agreement on the Galilean moons. That's why we've included both the English literary pronunciations and the original Latin or Greek, so you can choose to pronounce Io as either eye'-oe or ee'-oe, as you see fit. However, the first pronunciation indicated should be the one that's most widely used when referring to the object in English. While for most that's the literary pronunciation, Charon is an exception. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Arguing otherwise is like correcting people's pronunciation of Paris from pair'-us to pa-ree'. kwami 00:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

At the time I commented, only the sharon version of pronunciation was given. Noting that astronomers tend to use one pronunciation, whilst the classical is another, is fine as it is. It simply hadn't been like this before. And I say Pa-ris, so there :-)

So do I (parr-is in the system as it now stands). I'd be amazed to hear it start like pair in a non-American accent.--JHJ 18:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm an astronomer, and I pronounce it in the Greek way. Whether the discoverer likes it or not, planets and moons are named for classical characters, and not for our loved ones. At professional meetings, both pronunciations are used approximately equally, so both should be given equal weight here.

Turns out that the pronunciation is shair'-ən, homophonous with "Sharon" rather than "Charlene". Refs cited on the Charon talk page. kwami 17:43, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Animation link?

When I try to look at the animation link at the bottom (which is referenced in the article text), an AVI file is downloaded, and Windows Media Player gives me an error that it can't find the codec. What codec is needed to look at it? (And this should probably be referenced next to the link.) Tempshill 20:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

We can't give technical information for every media player that might be in use. You need to go to the support website for your software and look up which codex you need. Personally, I use WinAmp, and I chose the codecs when I downloaded the software so that I could play every kind of file that had support available. kwami 00:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Tempshill, this appears to be IV50, Intel's ancient Indeo 5.0. Unfortunately. :( --Markzero 14:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Cut from article

Naming notes So far no asteroid shares the name of a Plutonian moon.

I just removed this short section. If the section can be expanded, put it back. It seems to be hinting at something, but currently detracts from the article.

Ummm, could you at least sign your comments? If you're familiar with the sections on each {Planet}'s natural satellites page, you would see that this is a "standard" comment made. The SWRI group has names forthcoming, I'm sure: but that's not the point. It's simply standard to note this since planetary satellite names and minor planet names can (unfortunately) overlap. --Sturmde 15:19, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Names

An anon added the statement that the proposed names for the new moons are Pluto's three-headed dog Cerberus and its two-headed brother Orthrus. Great names, and appropriate for medium moons, but I can't confirm, so I deleted. (One-headed Charon for Pluto I, two-headed Orthrus for Pluto II, and three-headed Cerberus for Pluto III - it's got a nice symmetry to it.) kwami 01:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I've only seen those names suggested in comments at Phil Plait's Bad Astronomy blog pages... Here's hoping the discovery gang picks up on the mnemonic value you've pointed out! one head, moon one... two heads, moon two... etc. Superb observation! --Sturmde 03:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd think it'd go that way regardless, with Cerberus being the name of the brighter moon; also, the order 'Cerberus & Orthrus' correlating with P1 & P2, but it would be annoying if they ended up getting chosen but the other way around! kwami 04:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone happen to know how to contact the discoverers or the IAU and propose this? --P3d0 03:15, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I emailed several of the discoverers (at least one from each participating institution) but unsurprisingly haven't received any replies. They must be swamped in email about this. Anyway, hopefully one of them will have at least read it, in case these names are actually considered. kwami 02:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I like those names. I put them to the test. — Hurricane Devon (Talk) 18:02, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Very good and interesting names. o.o i'm impressed. --Pedro 16:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Now there's a change to suggest those names to Alan Stern. See this Planetary Society Weblog entry:

"Here are some ground rules: the names must come from Roman mythology and they must have a logical connection to one another and to either Pluto or Charon (or both)."

Well, I guess Greek names are ok.--Jyril 14:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Damn! Cerberus is already reserved for asteroid 1865 Cerberus.--Jyril 14:20, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
That dosn't mater. There're are asteroids named after moons and moons named after asteroids. Cupid is the names of an asteroid, but Uranus now has a moon with this name. — Hurricane Devon ( Talk ) 17:00, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
When the discovery of P1 & P2 came out, they said that they'll study them in February 2006. And they said that they would name them once the're confirmed. It's only a matter of time now.
— Hurricane Devon ( Talk ) 02:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Barycenter

I'm a bit uncomfortable that we claim the Pluto+Charon system is a double planet just because the barycenter is not inside Pluto. I raised the same objection in Talk:Jupiter#Barycenter. The problem is, there are planet+satellite configurations where the barycenter is outside the planet, yet the pair is clearly not a double planet. For instance, if Neptune had a satellite at a distance of 50 Gm — well within its Hill sphere — with a mass of just 1/500 of Neptune, then the barycenter of this system would be well outside of Neptune, but I think this is clearly not a double planet system. --P3d0 14:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, 'often called a double planet' or 'the closest thing in the Solar system to a double planet' would be less misleading. kwami 22:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I'd be happier if we were to claim the reason was Charon's large size relative to Pluto, rather than the system's barycenter; or equally good, if we were to cite an authoratative source that also claimed the barycenter as the reason. --P3d0 02:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Never mind. Someone has reworded it now and I like it the way it is. --P3d0 00:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Boulder and Baltimore?

Are these the nicknames of the moons? — Hurricane Devon ( Talk ) 20:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they were used by the discovery team.--Jyril 20:41, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Are the nicknames really important enough to be listed in the table?--Jyril 18:45, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Your call. Take them out if you like. kwami 00:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Common origin of the satellites

Recent Hubble images show the moons of Pluto have all similar color after all.[3] Schematic view of the Pluto system shows S/2005 P 1 to be slightly larger.[4] Unfortunately, no diameter values for the moons are provided in the news release.--Jyril 16:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Will incorporate. P1-P2 size difference and size relative to Charon may simply be diff in brightness assuming same albedo, since we don't have much else to go on. kwami 20:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The sizes in the image suggest 44km for P2 and 58km for P1. kwami 21:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Seen from the ecliptic?

The phrase "as seen from the ecliptic" makes no sense. Depending on where on the ecliptic plane one is located, the moons' orbits could look completely different. Does this actually mean "as seen from the Sun"? If so, why is it so different from the view from the Earth? --P3d0 16:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, my apologies. The view is from near Charon’s orbit pole, i.e. declination 0°, RA 133° following Buie. The 96° inclination can be tough to explain, and the inclinations to Pluto’s equator and Pluto’s orbit even tougher so I abandoned them as long as I do not have the diagram showing it. In fact, this is not so dramatically different from Uranus moons (except to Pluto’s orbit inclination, of course). I hope my update clears it up. BTW, the orbits have been assumed circular from the discovery images; now this is confirmed by calculation based on more images going back to 2002. PS. Relatively new to wikipedia, I've seen your feeling ‘makes no sense’ (indeed, I forgot longitude or RA) expressed by more polite statements. Regards Eurocommuter 18:53, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Origins

The paper I cited is Lithwick & Wu, On the Origin of Pluto's Minor Moons, Nix and Hydra, American Astronomical Society, DDA meeting #38, #3.05, July 2007. I have only seen the abstract, and suspect I got the second eccentricity wrong, or that there's a typo. kwami 16:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a bit confusing, but they write 0.8(R_Pluto/a_Charon) - who knows why they use this weird notation - which must mean 0.8 times the ratio. The ratio is 0.061, so they must be meaning an eccentricity of at least 0.049 (let's say 0.05, since 0.8 is only to one significant digit). Sounds like a reasonable number Deuar 10:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

"Moons of Pluto"

There has been consensus to change the name of the Uranus' natural satellites article to "Moons of Uranus" here. This fits the footer, is less jargony, and avoids the apostrophe issue some people complain about with Uranus and Mars. However, this article should have the same format. Anyone here wish to comment, support, or object? kwami 19:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

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